Fight Turn-In Thread (DISCUSSION)

[Delilah A. Black]

Jul 10, 2013 23:29:58 GMT -8 @saint said:

Jul 10, 2013 23:09:05 GMT -8 Delilah A. Black said:

Experience should draw from a lengthy fight. One or two blows is not enough time to learn something in a fight. You learn to fight through repetition. a LOT of repetition.

Getting arrested only earns you the experience that you did something wrong, which is sort of a moot point in a post apocalyptic universe. Please also keep in mind that XIN does not run on the mechanics of "POLICE" or "JAIL" and never really has, except as personal character side stories.

That said, I'm in support of the new system as a member. The MODS worked hard on this from weeks ago. It's implementation means they all agreed to it.

If your stake in the site and your character is honest and sincere, then it shouldn't be an issue for anyone.

That's Boldface lie. This came about because of Destiny, Jamal, and myself, which is fine but don't pretend otherwise. This would have been brought up earlier if that was the case, instead of the hostility towards them.

That said, you can and will do whatever you want. Just pointing out what Lucien said was false.And I can not find fault with forcing people to earn EXP, it's why I had such hatred for the abomination known as the arena. So go for it.

b(^.^)d

-Shrugs- believe what you want. I have no reason to lie about that sort of thing as it was already a problem on the site.

Also, I'm glad to see that you see it as a straightforward corrective action.

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2013 23:38:19 GMT -8 Lucien DeChain said:

This is only the part concerning the implementation of said system.

(T+3:12:51) Tanya: Topic: Writing Requirements in Fights
“It's been noted that there have been members that have been one-lining fights, getting experience from them, and building up their character quickly with minimal work. It's causing concern for staff, because the older members of the board, who have worked from the ground up, did that work in detail for the majority of the time. It's been suggested that we have staff monitor fight threads and award experience based on the quality of the post. One of the suggestions was a minimum of 10 posts, 2000 words per person.”

Greg:
“I've noticed that some people have been getting experience from fights where they put in minimal effort, and sometimes less than what we would classify as minimal effort. A lot of the time, a fight post could be 'react and respond', which takes up two sentences, and if the fight is over in ten rounds, the fight is over with 300 words per person. As players, I think we should hold ourselves to a standard, and as staff I think we should be able to hold the players to that standard of writing that we can be proud of. I believe we should demand a certain amount of quality if we're giving out experience with these fights. Whether that is a minimum word requirement, or a case-by-case content requirement, I would be in agreement of that. Personally I don't like a word count requirement, because it could lead into quantity over quality, posting fluff that doesn't really apply to the situation. Instead, the requirement should be in quality of the writing, that tells the reader that the character is really in the fight, and not just going through the motion. Though it would cause more work for the staff, I think that a quality requirement would be a lot more clear.”

Lloyd:
“I've been in systems before where in order to have a fight, a player had to contact a moderator, and that moderator would be assigned to watching that fight to make sure it was to standard. I think this would work for us.”

Greg:
“I do have a suggestion, and that is that we create another system where we turn in fight threads for experience, and one GM or moderator would be in charge of approving those, and giving experience out for them. I think that it is something we could bring back, since it was used on the site before. Also, what was suggested earlier, the notion that a fight could end with awarding more than one experience point per fighter, per fight. I don't think this is a good idea. The writing requirement should be there, but I think it should be a maximum of one experience point each, per fight.”

Tanya:
“I do admit that getting extra experience for putting in extra effort is tempting, but I agree with Greg, because then you don't need as much staff input or peer input. For being in the same fight, it doesn't seem fair to have one person walk away with four experience, and the other being awarded two, no matter the quality of the writing.”

Greg:
“I think that you're right. My issue with multiple experience rewards is that it might be construed as favouritism, especially if one moderator was in charge of the awards. Whether it was favouritism or not, it could always be accused. Having the one experience point maximum, win or lose, is how it's been for a while and it has worked for us. The fight turn-in mechanic would be a good idea, and if it was to be implemented, I'd be happy to be in charge of that. The other way we could do it is just to have it open to any moderator who can do it the quickest.”

Lloyd:
“I think it's a good idea. I think all of us should do it, instead of just putting all the work on one person. Sharing the duties puts less strain on one individual mod.”

Tanya:
“If you want to do it, Greg, with the understanding that you can ask for help at any time, with one thread or with multiple threads, I would trust you to do it.”

Decision Agreed: We will implement a Fight Turn-In system to monitor the quality of fights, and experience will be awarded by the moderator. The previous maximum of 1 experience point per fight each will still be in effect.

Side-Proposition: Delegating Staff to Certain Duties
Lloyd:
“I think if each of us were to be in charge of one particular thing, we would also be helping with the other duties of each other. Not necessarily approving things, but keeping an eye on them, nonetheless. Kind of like a peer-review.”

Tanya:
“I think that being able to cover each others duties when necessary is awesome, and I don't feel like we should need to stay in one area, since it makes it feel more job-like, where the site is supposed to be more fun and laid back, even as staff. If the staff don't stick around, the board won't move anywhere. So long as you feel comfortable and happy in what you're doing, it's good, and I don't mind having specialization and keeping an eye on one another for quality control. But, don't feel like you have to stick with something if you find you're not enjoying it as much.”

Greg:
“If something wasn't getting done for some reason, if one Helper was away, and people were starting to notice, the duty would fall to one of us to pick it up, and be supportive of one another. Even as staff, we are collaborating, and we should have that freedom, but on the flip-side, if we don't split up the work load, it might seem like the work being done isn't doing anything, or that the overwhelming amount of things to be done just doesn't get smaller. I think delegating tasks for one another and dividing up the work load in an even way, while helping each other out, it might clear up some of that frustration that might occur.”

Tanya:
“I agree with specialization. If we have our own tasks, to lighten the load on each others shoulders.”

Decision Reached: Proposition Passed.

I recant.

[Katsuri Katashi]

Jeff blocked the punch with his arm and stepped forward to knee AJ in the stomach.

Jeff barely had time to react to the lightning fast punch that AJ had aimed for him. He would bring up his forearm to block, deflecting it barely enough to miss his face. His arm stung from the impact, almost making him want to pull back, but knowing he should keep contact with his opponent. Though AJ's move was powerful, it was also risky, as it left his midsection exposed. A mistake that Jeff wouldn't forgive. Stepping forward, he would keep contact with AJ's arm as he guided a knee into the larger man's gut.

Theres nothing wrong with fluff in terms of roleplay, I like fluff, it can be fun to do sometimes. That said there is nothing wrong with using the essentials.

If you're going to have an issue with the first type of post please leave it as there not being enough detail to know whats going on as opposed to length.

For instance: "Jeff barely reflected AJ's punch from his face with his right forearm. Jeff could see that AJ's midsection was open from the previous attack, and shifted forwards, forearm still connected to AJ's own arm, and slammed his left knee towards AJ's gut."

This is more detail with less fluff and could be an entire post on its own, there is no need to have two or three large paragraphs ( Something I am guilty of myself a lot of the time mind you ), just that part of one is enough in a fight. It just has two things happening. It has Jeff diverting AJ's attack and then countering with his own. It presumes AJ would have stated what arm he used ( which is why thats not present. ) otherwise it gives just enough detail to get a visual image of what Jeff is doing.

He's brought his right arm up, pushing AJ's arm away with the forearm part of said arm. While doing this he moved forward (as best he can in closed quarters anyhow), leaving his right arm up, and tries to slam his left knee into AJ's gut.

This lets the opponent know that Jeffs right arm is being used right now, as well as his left knee. It also lets him know that AJ could use the momentum from Jeff's block to turn, probably taking the knee to the ribcage, but at the same time letting AJ use his own right foot to try and sweep Jeff.

Etc, etc, ad infinitum.

Mind you thats if you're going to harp for more detail, there honestly is no need for it in most cases.

A simple: "Jeff blocks AJ's punch with his right arm, then steps forwards and tries to knee him with his left leg."

Is enough. The other player can roll with this: "AJ brought his own knee up to connect with Jeffs, before jumping back."

Then: "Jeff follows after AJ, attempting to punch him in the mouth with his left hand."

Then: "AJ brings his right hand up grabbing Jeffs to stop it, then tries to kick him in the ribs with his left foot."

Not the best example, but you get the idea.

[Kyrie Blaze]

Generally, I'd say its expected that posts will fluctuate. Sometimes you may only want to put up a short post to make it seem like the fight between the two is so fast they can only afford a simple action.

However, "technical" details like you first explained? I love them. It makes it so much easier for me, as someone who isn't experienced in any form of martial art, to visualize and try to respond accordingly with what I know of my character's style. I think that was what we were trying to get at, not necessarily "fluff", per se.

Though I've got no issues with fluff in the sense of my character's thoughts/emotions/reactions in the fight, when it needs to be shown~ or even a random detail she sees, most often about the person she's fighting.

[Katsuri Katashi]

And thats perfectly acceptable, if you as a roleplayer feel you are not being given enough detail to reply appropriately its an issue.

It just needs to be made sure that people are not penalized just because of short quick posts like the second example I gave. The cost of things are high enough that post count spamming should not really be an issue.

That said, if we as a board are going to start scrutinizing I would bring up that if it were my own decision I would think about doing away with fight XP, transfer XP, and transferred items including retroactively doing so. It would bring most people, including myself, well below their current cap, but it would also better level the playing field, make it so people don't spam fights, and give those capped out players reasons to care about XP again.

That said it would be an immense amount of work to do such a thing and to ensure that quests / events are more reliable ( Not counting the monthly event which is fairly consistent )

I dunno. I am just rambling and this is not relevant at all to the topic so I shall shut up now.

[Eurydice Sudeki]

I not going into particularly too much detail right now, so hopefully I can say this with understanding. I for one don't mind environmental details cause for me personally it gives me an idea of the playing field. Ground, what could possibly be around if not said etc.. Not to mention I don't mind it to be a bit lengthy cause personally I get a feel for how a character is thinking in a fight and blah blah. Then there's body placement, did they use turn their hip with the punch.. blah blah.. Why is that important? Cause I can't assume you threw a proper punch, you could just easily be throwing your arm out. Etc.. If I'm misunderstood I'll gladly go into a bit more detail, just have a terrible headache right now to stare at this screen for any longer.

And just so it's known, I am in no way saying I disagree with what's been said so far pertaining to certain aspects. Just adding...

[Date Masamune™]

I mean I don't really see a reason to argue this. I also don't see a reason why staff have to justify their decision on this. Players just need to stay on top of their posts. There's no length requirement, so just make sure that your posts have as much detail in them as possible.

I feel like maybe there should be an incentive for players to post with even more detail though. Like if you go above and beyond requirements, maybe the player should get an extra stat point? And I mean way above and beyond for very carefully and meticulously thought out posts.

[Katsuri Katashi]

Jul 11, 2013 8:04:21 GMT -8 Eurydice Sudeki said:

I not going into particularly too much detail right now, so hopefully I can say this with understanding. I for one don't mind environmental details cause for me personally it gives me an idea of the playing field. Ground, what could possibly be around if not said etc.. Not to mention I don't mind it to be a bit lengthy cause personally I get a feel for how a character is thinking in a fight and blah blah. Then there's body placement, did they use turn their hip with the punch.. blah blah.. Why is that important? Cause I can't assume you threw a proper punch, you could just easily be throwing your arm out. Etc.. If I'm misunderstood I'll gladly go into a bit more detail, just have a terrible headache right now to stare at this screen for any longer.

And just so it's known, I am in no way saying I disagree with what's been said so far pertaining to certain aspects. Just adding...

Disagreeing should not be frowned upon even if you were (Not to say you are, just clarifying something). Its part of a healthy debate.

You desire more detail in a fight so that you can get a good feel for who your fighting, how skilled they are, etc. There is absolutely no problem with needing more detail from a partner, I feel this should still be on a per fight/per user basis. IE: If both parties can roll with the simple stuff then it should be fine so long as it isnt, like one or two punch and the fights over sorta thing.

[Kyrie Blaze]

Jul 11, 2013 8:30:18 GMT -8 Date Masamune™ said:

I feel like maybe there should be an incentive for players to post with even more detail though. Like if you go above and beyond requirements, maybe the player should get an extra stat point? And I mean way above and beyond for very carefully and meticulously thought out posts.

We had actually discussed this very thing, to tell you the truth, but, came to the conclusion that to spare any potential accusations of unfair judging, it was best to leave the exp gain at plus one.

(Obviously dependent, still, on the number of people in the thread you fought unless it was a brawl like "FLY, YOU FOOLS!")

[Eurydice Sudeki]

And as usual there is no argument. Its a simple conversation. Just cause people have different views doesn't make it an argument. I just needed to say this cause this was the exact problem on a certain board where if anything was really said/discussed it magically was an argument. That kinda bothers me. Debating, giving opinions and arguing... big differences.

And if you guys want.. instead of 1 point win or loss... I remember when it was at least 2 for winning, 1 for loss or draw... That wouldn't be a bad thing to give the winner 2 exp considering..

[Jack]

lol. What ever. I'm over this more than my ex girlfriend.

[Your Mom~]

Jul 11, 2013 8:35:29 GMT -8 Katsuri Katashi said:

You desire more detail in a fight so that you can get a good feel for who your fighting, how skilled they are, etc. There is absolutely no problem with needing more detail from a partner, I feel this should still be on a per fight/per user basis. IE: If both parties can roll with the simple stuff then it should be fine so long as it isnt, like one or two punch and the fights over sorta thing.

Agreed. When I'm fighting someone, it's easier for me to imagine and understand if moves are explained with enough detail.

Example: John Doe throws a punch at Jane!

With what hand? Where are his feet? Does he step forward first? Where is the punch aiming to land? How much strength is he using? What kind of punch is it? Where are they? What's their situation?

Better example: John Doe exhaled angrily. This was the last time he'd ever lend HER money! He cocks his left arm back, stepping forward with his right foot to throw an uppercut straight at Jane's jaw.

Now, it's got the moving limb, the motion, the target. It's also got the setting for context. If it's a fast moving fight, you don't need to shove pounds of fluff in there to make it a quality post. Quality is based on clarity and style.

[David B.]

Really, This should be a fairly easy rule introduction. Most people have lengthy fights. But some situations DO need monitoring- for instance. A while back I had a thread with Delilah in a bar, where there was a lot of thought, talking, badmouthing, but not a whole ton of fighting. Sure, he got punched a few times and so did she, but it was more of a story development thread than a fight thread and may not have been worthy of exp.

Basically, when fighting, just make sure there are a few solid posts for combat that include a little detail. No biggie ^_^

[Roth O'Roak]

wat

["Unfettered"]

Jul 11, 2013 13:25:36 GMT -8 Roth O'Roak said:

wat

Roth O'Roak: I can probably assure you that if I were to talk with Ryan/Gabriel Seran, he'd probably be sympathetic towards this, having been one of the instigators of the spam of fight threads that occured during 552, if you recall the Joe vs Ryan era.

Edit: More to the point, he acknowledges that a lot of the fight spamming of the time was more competitively and antagonistically sourced from himself and Joe. While he may disagree with the adding of a new system, the point is the source of the player's integrity.

This is reminiscent of older times, but with a slightly more efficient twist. If we had this on 42, perhaps things wouldn't developed as grossly as they had. And the strong benefit of this will put emphasis on quests and M.E.s