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Post by David B. on Oct 25, 2013 10:01:38 GMT -8
David shook his head.
"I'm not here to argue. If or when I hear about Leon trying to kill his apprentices in the streets, I'll put my boot to his ass. And as for Rai- I haven't heard anything about him either. You sent Kiyr naked through the streets, it's the only reason I bring her up."
He scrunched his face.
"Good lord, Matt. Shall we just whip out our dicks and measure them that way? I don't care who it is. Public humiliation of that fashion isn't how the Dragons are run. If you weren't a Dragon, and she weren't, I wouldn't say a damn thing because your right, she is your apprentice and it's her choice to let you teach her how you please. But she's also a member of this gang and regardless of your position or hers in regards to the name, you made her appear as nothing to the men- independent of the status or positions of power you give to her, it still devalues her publicly, and devalues us. Teach her your way, I don't care, but do so in a way that the men aren't given an idea about her that is false- meaning public crap. I would say the same about anyone, Rai or Leons apprentices included.."
He took a deep breath, showing his clear disdain.
"I don't speak for Kiyr, I speak for me and the Dragons. The gang you lead, and how your methods appear to your men and to the free people. When shit you do effects the people I work with and the men I lead, it becomes my problem. If this seems too personally focused on her let me put in another way- You lead a gang. Watch how your methods make the rest of us look, and how they make those you teach look. It's not that difficult of a concept to grasp, man- this is politics 101. And it makes sense. Seriously, this argument is dumb."
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Post by Mathew Amtrum on Oct 25, 2013 11:26:04 GMT -8
"Article F: The word of your commanding officer is law. Disobedience is rewarded harshly. As an Elder like you our ranks are equal. The agreement she made with you and your sky force directly went against the standing agreement she had with me. She showed disobedience and I punished her withing the confines set in Dragon Law."
He crossed his arms.
"Otherwise I could have just killed her for her betrayal. But that also breaks your rules."
The fact that she lost face was of no concern to him and was part of the point. Face would need to be earned anew, which as far as he was concerned she had done.
"You talk about how it looks to our men. I followed the law and rewarded her harshly for her actions. As far as I am concerned, I'm harsh but fair. I have no favorites among the Dragons and if any random soldier disobeyed you better believe his punishment would be just as harsh. You don't have to like it, but I am following your rules."
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Post by David B. on Oct 25, 2013 11:42:05 GMT -8
David waggled his finger.
"No no no- she did nothing wrong within the confines of the gang. She swore an oath to you- as her named master. Because she swore a debt to you as a named, and then one to me as an elder, you punished her. My order was wrong- and you should have come to me about it. Though in my defense, you were just as active then as you were now so...I didn't really think you'd give a damn. But had it been that big of a deal, you simply could have asked and I would have brought you into the circle. Not telling you was to keep it away from other ears- Like Bastille, or Rai."
He grinned.
"Glad to see you know our laws that well though. But this order was from me, and you punished her because it went against her oath to you as a named. These are completely separate. Add to that the nudity and the burn- you say it was to remind her. Thats possible and probably part of it. but it was also to tell the world that you can do whatever the fuck you want with her. And that was a purposeless punishment, and unfit for her breaking a rule that you decided went hand in hand when it really didn't."
He shrugged, and waited for Mathews further rebuttle.
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Post by Mathew Amtrum on Oct 25, 2013 12:48:22 GMT -8
"I was already an Elder when she swore her oath to me. Not to any one title. You may as well say the assassin that tried to kill me was trying to kill the Earth Dragon, not an Elder and thus the gang shouldn't care. I'm a lot of things, and they are all me. You don't get to make a promise to one side of that and not the other."
He shook his head when David said his order was wrong.
"Kiyr was wrong. She made a poor choice and was punished. On my end I moved on. As did many others. The nudity and burn were my way of punishing her betrayal. Just as I believe the one you threatened her with was what? Cutting out her tongue and striking her from the ranks of the Dragons? What would that show to the men if you had to do it? Or our allies?"
He shrugged and went back to his seat.
"You're right. We are more alike than either of us would normally admit. Your idea of a punishment is just as brutal and public as mine. If anything I'd say mine was nicer."
But that was Mathew, he was a giver.
"And it's not like my methods are new. You were fine with me burying Rai up to his head without food or water. You even struck him yourself."
He held up a finger.
"Yes, not a corps member yet at that point but he did directly threaten our lands and caused you to threaten his life. And as I said back then him joining would allow you and the others to also punish him if he fucks up. As you all saw fit, in addition to mine. So this issue really seems to be centered on who the target was. Not the nature of a harsh or public punishment."
Cute trying to say their oaths were to different parts though since the choice Mathew had given Kiyr was to leave him and the path to Dragon Eldership or leave the Sky force.
"Our problems stem from you being a hypocrite. My harsh punishments make us look bad. Yours I assume don't since you threaten it. You are mad because I plan and pour over maps and don't consult you and say come to me if you wanna know. But you have people swear to keep secrets even if asked, and if I want to know I can come to you?
You say you want to lead with me, but I'm the one that came to your house. I'm the one who suggested getting this crap out in the open. From where I'm sitting I'm the one reaching out. And you are mad because I do the same shit you do. The difference is I don't throw a fit when you don't tell me everything. Because I know you never have, and you probably never will."
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Post by David B. on Oct 25, 2013 15:08:58 GMT -8
David listened half heartedly to everything Mathew said- but, in the end, it was as he suspected. Mathew was more interested in calling him names and being right then actually listening. David had already, throughout the conversation, stated that Mathew was right on multiple accounts. But Mathew felt himself right in every capacity- and that was his failing. He would fold his hands in his lap and shake his head, giving a sigh.
"And there it is. Your talent. You say I'm a hypocrite, that my punishments are more brutal, that I'm wrong in every way. Then you paint yourself in the light of the righteous. That talent is...absolutely amazing. To manipulate words and actions and people to suit your own ends. Playing like your reaching out to me for the sake of reaching out. If there is one thing I've learned to admire about you, it's your ability to manipulate everyone and everything to your advantage. I didn't strike Rai, I stepped on him. And his punishment was public, and humiliating- but physical. Just as when we train the Core. I have never made a man crawl on his hands and knees while I rode on his back to make a point. Physical punishments, mental punishments- they can be one in the same. That particular punishment for Kiyr was wrong. Make her walk several miles with a boulder on her back that said 'I lied'. Just as humiliating."
"Try your best to justify it all you want, but making her walk naked, with a symbol of yours burned into her leg wasn't part of the punishment. It was a declaration of ownership by you. She allowed it to happen, and that is her failing, true. But swearing an oath to someone with the goal of becoming a named is different than swearing an oath to be an Elder. She told me it was for the name she swore the oath."
He flicked a hand, speaking all of this hopefully before Mathew could get a word in edgewise.
"Everyone has a bit of hypocrisy in them, no doubt- I am well aware of that. But I've had a year to think about it. I know the laws and I hear the people like Olesya and others talk about you and what you've done- Can you hear them from Gods territory? I tell you what though, I'm getting exhausted trying to pound logic into your head. The only reason you allow yourself to see is the one you think is best, and that brings us back to my first point- Someday, I'm going to have to kill you. End of story. So lets just drop the subject and move on, as I'm far more interested in the other reasons you came."
If Matt had to get in the last word, he would wait until he was done, otherwise he would focus his attention on the plans that Mathew brought up next.
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Post by Mathew Amtrum on Oct 25, 2013 16:03:12 GMT -8
Once more the Dragon shrugged. Agree to disagree apparently.
"You will have to get in line to kill me. I think you are the fourth most likely person to get that honor in the end."
Barker and Bastille were the two most likely. David would probably wait to long to really get his chance.
"It should be noted that we all manipulate each other. You are using me and I am using you. It's what makes the world go round. However I think it's pretty interesting that you bring up Olesya having an issue with my methods."
A smile cracked on his lips.
"Just the other day she was at my home and I brought up my brutal methods. Not a peep on them, but she did say one of the reasons she follows me is because I am a positive force."
He spread his arms and looked up.
"Maybe I'm secretly a Saint."
It was hard to not laugh as he said that. Like... harder than Bastille bending over made him, and probably most guys. Her ass was so good that it would probably win an award for being the best ass in some circles.
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Post by David B. on Oct 25, 2013 16:11:09 GMT -8
David shrugged.
"Meh, as long as your dead I'll be okay with it. It's not a desire of mine, its just the reality of how things will end. You'll kill me, or I'll kill you."
He would cock an eyebrow at his statement from Olesya. Then chuckled a bit.
"And secretly, I'm pulling Barkers strings. Your no saint. None of us are. Though I would agree with her on you being a positive force. Positive in general, yes, because you have loyalty. A positive force for the Dragons...? I would say a positive force for Mathew. But we all have our goals, in the end."
He wanted to slap the smirk off Mathews face...but in truth, he respected Mathews change of topic. He wasn't insistant or requiring he be the one with the last word on Kiyr and her punishment- something David though Matts ego would prevent. His eyebrows drew down a bit as he eyed the man. He cleared his throat.
"Seriously though, we've been sitting here for twenty minutes and have only sounded like an old Married couple arguing over whether the toilet seat should be up or down. You, of course, want it down."
A smirk. Because Matt was his bitch.
"Lets talk business. Since Olesya is up first- what do you have for me?"
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Post by Mathew Amtrum on Oct 25, 2013 16:28:09 GMT -8
"Only because you jerk off to much and get piss everywhere when the stream splits. "
You'd think with two girls the guy could get laid. Boy needed some game tips. Or one of Aryn's whores.... That gave him an idea. He would have to talk to her sometime.
"Les? She feels underappreciated and like she is entitled to an Elder title because of the work she has done. She claims she doesn't care about the title but wants the recognition. I think she has it in her someday, so I'm making a nearly pointless test to make her think and realize being an Elder isn't about getting recognized or throwing punches. And that it entails a lot of stuff."
Like not always bitching about it.
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Post by David B. on Oct 30, 2013 11:40:29 GMT -8
David smirked.
"Mans gotta do what a mans gotta do."
His eyebrows drew down just a bit as he went into detail about Les. He knew she wanted more titles and more authority through those titles. The only problem was that, in the short span of time she actually had one, she floundered. Yes, she did everything she needed to. Yes she kept them afloat. But she treated the territories like some terrible burden that might crash and burn at any moment. The only problem with that was- when David left, everything was in order. Everything was fitted nicely. There was a surpluss of food, morale, and medicines. The supply trains hadn't seen an attack in two weeks, and the only one that did just before he left had fought off the attackers.
"Olesya failed my test to be an Elder. She complained, she was pulling out her hair- there is no telling what damage she did to our image during relations with other gangs. She treated our territory like it might fail at any moment- when the reality was, she was the one who may fail at any moment. She's not suited to be an Elder. She has the potential, in the future. But right now, she can barely hold her life together as it is."
He gestured at the bag.
"This test your giving her is pointless. Because, while it will show her the meaning of our position, it won't get her any closer to becoming one. Any meeting we have on it, I'll simply veto her application until I feel she's ready. Unless it's your plan all along to make me look like the bad guy...in which case, fuck you and well played."
A grin. He honestly didn't care if he DID look like the bad guy. Truth was, Les was ready physically. But mentally and emotionally, she couldn't hack it. And those were far more important.
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Post by Mathew Amtrum on Nov 2, 2013 11:12:38 GMT -8
Mathew shrugged. The plan wasn't to make David look like the bad guy. He didn't need to do that. Oftentimes playing the role of Villain was better suited for Mathew anyways. It made people question him less and actually gave him more freedom to do what he needed to do.
"It's not a waste of time, even if you veto it to the end of time. Whether she actually manages to become an Elder is beside the point. What matters is that she understands it. Maybe then she won't cause as much damage to our image in the future."
Or maybe she would. That was really up to her, he planned to give her a puzzle and let her figure out how the pieces all fit together. It really wasn't his job to spell things out for people, they didn't learn that way. And something like this has such a personal meaning to each Elder, there would be no answer he could flat out give her that would be universally true. At least not one that she doesn't already know about the mechanics of it.
"Either way I think it's prudent to set potentials on the path in case some of us fall in the coming days. Don't you agree?"
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Post by David B. on Nov 2, 2013 11:34:32 GMT -8
David shrugged, letting out a breath.
"I guess so."
Their fall was a very real possibility- every day they had to deal with the potential of a new assassin. A new threat. A spy. Someday, they could very well get a knife in the side. Besides that, they were in wars and battles on the time. Prudent planning on Mathews part....though David already knew who he wanted in the next Elder role, he wouldn't mention it to Mathew.
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Post by Mathew Amtrum on Nov 2, 2013 11:43:38 GMT -8
"So what's going on in that airy skull of yours? I've been open and forthcoming. I'm sure you've been making plans and the like while I have been occupied."
He leaned in closer to David, pressing his arms on the table as he gave him that unnerving weighing look that he gave so often. Not that he expected David to be unnerved, but there was no doubt that Mathew was listening.
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Post by David B. on Nov 4, 2013 19:55:54 GMT -8
David took a deep breath before running his hand through his hair, thinking to himself a moment.
"Well, just the norm. I've got a new strategy set down for expansion. I know you probably have your own, in which case we may need to coordinate a bit. If your planning to stick around, I'd love to see another Elder on the battlefield."
He would lift a hand and flick his wrist, the maps and papers from the table floating over.
He would set them down on the tabletop and gesture.
"See here-"
OOC: This conversation between Mathew and David will take place via Skype. Will post here once it is complete.
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