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Post by Jack on Feb 5, 2013 21:14:03 GMT -8
We can purchase items for them why can't we also buy them?
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"your hide will make a fine poncho." |
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Post by Vespyr on Feb 5, 2013 21:38:20 GMT -8
Human trafficking, eh?
Apples and oranges, friend. Items and NPCs are two completely different things and should be treated as such, lest either of them become abused as a commodity.
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Post by Jack on Feb 5, 2013 22:13:33 GMT -8
Hiring NPC's then. Point is we can buy items and gear ourselves up but that's using OOC money. So why can't we purchase extra NPC's for our armies.
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Post by The New Student Dean on Feb 5, 2013 22:39:56 GMT -8
There are a variety of RPing as well as mechanical reasons as to why this would not be a good idea. RPing:- Can you justify using money to buy a mercenary? Perhaps if the "monetary value" was in the weight of resources, then yes.
- Where would these NPCs even come from? Now, yes, you can justify characters coming from anywhere (with exceptionally good reasoning, and probably at least 300-1000 extra words to your post), but this steps into the domain of what the Moderators and Admins can do for you.
- We run into the issue of where the hell did these mercenaries or NPCs in general (whether 10 to 200, or however many) even came from, their backgrounds. Keep in mind that Barker has enslaved a great number of people via drugs, natural flexing of power, etc., and not many people can go into hiding without putting up some form of resistance and developing into their own groups... which again runs into the responsibility of of the Administrators and Moderators.
- There would then run into the issue of discipline. Would there then be 50 troops that were die-hard loyalists to the buyer's cause? Rather then the idea of buying NPCs, seeing htem gradually trickle to you, via the slower progress of Charisma improvement, is a little more realistic.
- Though we can buy weapns and items and gear for ourselves, the one aspect that virtually NO ONE takes into consideration is where the hell these items come from. The ones you get in a quest for a fine---they're the loot off the corpses of your enemies. But when we have someone who magicked out materials from nowhere and "bought" himself Gutt's Beserker sword for +40 damage? Instead, it makes more sense in a realistic way to see the materials that are available to you or to create side-stories that go along with how you obtain your items. While purchasing items is a 259 mechanic, it doesn't mean that as RPers we can't have good ethics about it.
Mechanically:- You already get 1 Organization NPC for every 3 Charisma. And 1 Personal NPC for every 15 Charisma, of which NPCs of this variety which you delegate your EXP to, if you don't want to use it on your own character. As it is, we're already facing an inundation of NPCs. You can bet that if we allow this that players would then begin selling their equipment to hire as many NPCs as humanely possible. And in turn, this would unfortunately have the natural effect of encouraging more post whoring for the wrong reasons.
- It would encourage more and more of an ROT3K RP style, whose boards are infamous for dying out.
- There MAY be "NPC" Purchasing... but these may actually be more like quest events and therefore less permanent... in the nearby future. *HINTHINT*
These reasons and more are why we are currently not developing a system for NPC purchases.
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Post by Jack on Feb 6, 2013 10:50:27 GMT -8
Where are these rules written? As it stands these are the only rules written down with regards to Gangs that I have found I could have missed the other rules: phs259.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gang&action=display&thread=1975Anyhow lets break this down.#1 'Can you justify using money to buy a mercenary? Perhaps if the "monetary value" was in the weight of resources, then yes.' I'll split this up into two parts. Money here refers to the money my account has OOC, IC character my character has more or less that what my account says. As far as buying items OOC and using them IC this value does not come into effect. In a world where the American dollar is near useless paper money surely has taken the back bench in comparison to goods and services which are now traded for other goods and services over currency. But why is this now an issue when I raised it months ago I got not as much as a simple query. It was not relevant to bring up then so why is it an issue now? #2 We run into the issue of where the hell did these mercenaries or NPCs in general (whether 10 to 200, or however many) even came from, their backgrounds.This as everything ever done, ever will be developed in the role playing process. The conquering of territory and recruiting those enslaved by this group or that is an example. Again I do not understand where you are going with this. Please elaborate in a response if you have the time. #3 There would then run into the issue of discipline. Would there then be 50 troops that were die-hard loyalists to the buyer's cause? Rather then the idea of buying NPCs, seeing htem gradually trickle to you, via the slower progress of Charisma improvement, is a little more realistic As with the above, this is role played out. A high charisma player will have more loyalty from their troops at base, but depending on the characteristics of NPC's they will be more inclined to gravitate to certain personalities. The better drilled the unit the better they will perform, many Roman Legionaries did not innately "Love the cause" but they knew if they won they would get paid if they lost it was death. Their desire to be loyal to Rome was ingrained in them through training and somewhat mild forms of brain washing >.> Again I do not expect people to buy NPC's by the 100's only that they will serve as a nice way to beef up your forces with effective canon fodder. #4 Though we can buy weapns and items and gear for ourselves, the one aspect that virtually NO ONE takes into consideration is where the hell these items come from. The ones you get in a quest for a fine---they're the loot off the corpses of your enemies. But when we have someone who magicked out materials from nowhere and "bought" himself Gutt's Beserker sword for +40 damage? Instead, it makes more sense in a realistic way to see the materials that are available to you or to create side-stories that go along with how you obtain your items. While purchasing items is a 259 mechanic, it doesn't mean that as RPers we can't have good ethics about it.Again this one is on you. The majority if not all my items have some story to them. Some certainly have better ones than others, many of them I made a thread first then bought the item OOC and linked it IC. Example there are more than one thread where Jack got suits made for him. Jack wearing bandages currently being another linking of OOC item to IC. This however is beside the point, not only that is it implausible for numerous reasons. Maybe one day it will be implemented and get a chance but up until now it hasn't and it would be improper to suddenly switch the way the whole board is structured. #5 You already get 1 Organization NPC for every 3 Charisma. And 1 Personal NPC for every 15 Charisma, of which NPCs of this variety which you delegate your EXP to, if you don't want to use it on your own character. As it is, we're already facing an inundation of NPCs. You can bet that if we allow this that players would then begin selling their equipment to hire as many NPCs as humanely possible. And in turn, this would unfortunately have the natural effect of encouraging more post whoring for the wrong reasons. The rules say otherwise. For every 5 charisma, you get +1 NPC with 8 of each statistic for your gang For every PC that joins your gang, you get +1 NPC for every 5 of their charisma. People post whore, in fact it's now gotten to the point where you don't even know people are post whoring because they're doing it across IMs. The issue I have is it's only realistic when it suits people. As it stands there is nothing stopping people taking 5-10 territories and not have any gains what so ever. It's as if you take over a territory and magic all the people who were there just vanished or those who are there just ignore you. Certainly as you take over territories you also get to increase your forces. This of course to be true with the current rules would mean territories were limited to charisma. Is the only limit those NPC's with STATS and NPC's without stats have no limit as long as they are justified?
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My need for proper protocol is shocking. |
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Post by Lucien DeChain on Feb 6, 2013 12:52:20 GMT -8
Hey, so Mikey already cleared up one of your points in a PM to me, and I thought I'd share it to stop him from having to reiterate a single point a dozen times. I'm also MAYBE going to start writing up some compiled new rules for this kind of shizz. If mods approve.
So, yeah, that old rule in your last point... It's now, for every 3 charisma your character has, you can have 1 organizational NPC with 10 in each stat. This applies even if someone else joins your gang.
For example, Lucien makes a gang, he has 20 charisma. (just go with it for now) That means that in MAKING the gang, Lucien gets 20/3 NPCs, rounded down, which is 6, with 10 in every stat. Now, let's say that Rai joins my gang (again, just an example) and he has 25 charisma. The gang gets 25/3 NPCs, rounded down, which is 8, with 10 in every stat. After everything, with Lucien and Rai in the gang, without any PNPCs (Who by my recollection have to join the gang separately), the gang has two PC members and 14 NPC members.
Capiche?
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"your hide will make a fine poncho." |
PLAYED BY OOC NAME
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Post by Vespyr on Feb 6, 2013 13:14:29 GMT -8
Yeah the gangs have been running this way for awhile, i don't think it was officially updated in the rules but it was laid out somewhere probably in an announcement or something :/
In any case, i'm still strongly against the buying of NPCs. I think there are plenty of opportunities for your character/organization to accrue NPCs the old-fashioned way. It keeps things from getting too inflated and out of control. Realistically, if your organization needs more NPCs, the overal CHA of you and the PCs in your organization need to be able to support them, i.e. your abilities as a leader and not your wallet.
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Post by The New Student Dean on Feb 7, 2013 14:46:40 GMT -8
Instead of arguing my points in defense, I would like to hear your reasons as to why we should have another mechanic added to the 259 system. Please elaborate for the staff and participating 259 members: - How would introducing a "Purchasing NPC" system would improve the 259 experiance?
- How this fits into the 259 RPB and how it works with our forum?
- Why people should be interested in this?
- Would this genuinely be plausible and not abused? Can you define for me the pros and cons or why it would be worth the risk of abuse, if any?
As staff, it is our duty to listen to any plausible mechanic that would be popular, would extend the further longevity of the site, and would make the place more fun, and if doable, to implement it as quickly as possible. If we don't think it'll enhance the site or that something is too big of a risk, that would earn something a staff-based veto before it's even mentioned to the public or put up for a public vote. Right now, the stance is that, yes, that may be an enjoyable aspect to add to an RPB, but as an RPer who has genuinely seen the buying of NPCs and armies on a multitude of different RPBs, the mechanic you're suggesting... would perhaps be better suited for a site that wasn't 259. We would love to hear your opinion and will take it into consideration. However if it is not popular with the rest of the populace, as well as the staff, then please understand. Thank you for understanding.
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"your hide will make a fine poncho." |
PLAYED BY OOC NAME
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Post by Vespyr on Feb 7, 2013 15:27:56 GMT -8
Let's just put it this way, as well: in a hypothetical world where buying NPCs is a thing, how much would they cost?
Justifiably, an NPC is worth his stats (and then some). A basic NPC has a total of 60 stats. Stats can be purchased for $300 a pop. Essentially in buying an NPC, you're buying 60 stat points. $300 x 60 = $18,000, then throw in some base cost, a fee for raising your NPC cap, a bit extra because he's a human being and worth more than just his stats, and you've got about $20,000 at the very least.
:/
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Post by Jack on Feb 7, 2013 22:18:10 GMT -8
Your minds are made up therefore my points are irrelevant. Furthermore you both argue from the ridiculous Vespyr who puts an unimaginable price tag on it and you who claims that it's some harbinger of doom and gloom.
Final point as irrelevant and a waste of time it is, this had been done before with NPC packs to be purchased as items for the guild. It didn't destroy #552, there weren't mass selling of items to purchase the NPCs it was just like anything else. Ultimately #552 failed but it wasn't being there were too many NPCs.
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Post by The New Student Dean on Feb 7, 2013 22:49:49 GMT -8
Yesterday, I took a moment to think about this and posted genuinely as to why, and threw the ball in your court, seeing as how you genuinely believe that my first post in this thread was flawed and wrong. Hence, my second post was created. Reasons for caution include, very genuinely, the events that occured on 552... from Leon, Celeste (who actually, by sources of Matthew Amtrum and I believe Valo was actually an abuser of NPCs, though she worked hard and dearly for the site), and hence why NPCs in combat have been one of the most biased things against. This was a principle in fact that 259 was created due to, aside from Leon's rage at the administration of 552. However, if you believe us to be blatantly biased against you, that will be your call. At a pricing of $18,000 (which is mathematically in fact how much it costs for 60 points in the custom item shop), it would actually be genuinely plausible. Anything lower would be an abuse to the custom item system which we have revised ceaselessly for the past 7 years, first under. For now, I will lock this thread. However, if you would instead like to push the idea and wish to renew your proposition either by public polling or by personal PM to myself, I would be happy to hear your points and unlock the thread as of this time. For now, I will let the decision stand. Thank you for understanding. Thread Locked.
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