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Post by Mr. Kaar on Oct 11, 2013 22:59:41 GMT -8
"Huh, makes sense."
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Post by Levi Kayamei on Oct 12, 2013 7:20:29 GMT -8
I vote yes. I think "just having stuff" or "It works cuz it kinda makes sense" is a cop out and is a complete lack of creativity and commitment. My understanding of the Xin world and thus 259 is that physics and general laws of nature apply the same, but people have Qi and the strength to bust through walls, survive great falls/injuries, etc. I felt that this was pretty established and so I assumed that anything that can happen can be explained accurately and make sense according to our understanding of the world, sense aside from the ability to control Qi and super physiques, the two worlds aren't that different in terms of how science works. A crazy mad man who bombs the world? Why not? How could that not happen tomorrow? Ogres? Yeah, that is a stretch, but still doesn't necessarily break the laws of nature as genetics is an incredible prospect that is largely unexplored and without rules to restrict what people can do with it, you can't say ogres are impossible in the real world.
I also think removing the magic hammer that can literally make anything out of anything that can DO anything (because magic) would be helpful to this cause. Where is the creativity in that? An item maker with a hammer of make anything +10 actually eliminates the need to explain anything beyond, "Yeah it's magic, so it works."
Before anyone argues that Qi is magic I will say that Qi is energy, energy must follow the laws of nature thus our Qi must follow those same laws. Additionally (and probably more importantly), many of us control elements of nature with our Qi and thus our restrictions are increased by the restrictions and properties unique to said elements. Magic does not have any of these restrictions because it tends to be classified as energy and yet defy all laws of nature on a whim, and so again, why explain it at all? It works the way it does because it's magic. Boring.
I understand that this is fantasy, hence the Qi and the Barker things, and creativity is fine, but why do you need to be able to literally do anything? What would be not fun if you simply accept the fact that some things in this particular fantasy world are not possible due to current circumstances? It's no different than a video game: It is fantasy, but in this fantasy reality, there are established parameters, some of them change, but only to a point and they must be followed. It being fantasy doesn't mean anything is possible, just more or different things.
We got Qi, tech we can salvage (mind you not much because of how EMPs work), Barker has unrestricted science, what more do you really need? How about a little restriction? How about having some things you simply can not do? How about some parameters to guide your creativity instead of just a completely unrestricted sandbox? If you're bored and need to come up with BS (magic is BS) to have fun? Maybe it's time to move on. Magic opens too many doors that are simply unneeded. If you want magic, there are other boards to play on that have plenty of magic.
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Do not test me. You will lose. |
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Post by David B. on Oct 12, 2013 9:33:02 GMT -8
Let me restate my answer-
Having things "make sense" is fine, by all accounts. Making sure someone with a fire Qi can't control water, or an earth Qi controlling air? Good too. requiring all items and Qi follow a specific set of rules that make sure their not abused or overpowered- I've always wanted that.
But picking apart every aspect of the world, whether on Qi or items or what can be done shouldn't happen. As long as there is a "huh, makes sense" mentality there is nothing wrong with it, I agree, as Lucien was saying. But I also agree that most of the incredible things in the 259 world are classified as "Magic" too. That's not to say magic doesnt need rules- people doing whatever they want whenever they want creates chaos and thats no fun. But when we say "Magic", we mean the enhancements of the world like Qi, or super items or these mutants is classified there. They don't belong in a world where everything is blown up.
If this is about voting for a "huh, makes sense" clause, I thought we were already doing that and therefore, I would agree in having it. If it's about looking at someone and saying "No, you can't have an item that allows you to run up a skyscraper to the roof because that techs not in this world" or to say "Your Qi is earth bending, how can you mend concrete and suddenly shift metal, despite that making sense" I totally disagree.
Suppose I should change my vote to "Other", as I guess I'm confused as to the point of the poll itself. ^_^
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Post by Delilah A. Black on Oct 12, 2013 16:29:46 GMT -8
Let me restate my answer- Having things "make sense" is fine, by all accounts. Making sure someone with a fire Qi can't control water, or an earth Qi controlling air? Good too. requiring all items and Qi follow a specific set of rules that make sure their not abused or overpowered- I've always wanted that. But picking apart every aspect of the world, whether on Qi or items or what can be done shouldn't happen. As long as there is a "huh, makes sense" mentality there is nothing wrong with it, I agree, as Lucien was saying. But I also agree that most of the incredible things in the 259 world are classified as "Magic" too. That's not to say magic doesnt need rules- people doing whatever they want whenever they want creates chaos and thats no fun. But when we say "Magic", we mean the enhancements of the world like Qi, or super items or these mutants is classified there. They don't belong in a world where everything is blown up. No one is arguing that point. In my post which I made on the last page, which I will post again on this one until people read it, all we are asking for is justification. The QI rules need fixing, there's no doubt about that in my mind. But, we're not discussing Qi at the moment, though some of it is related. We are discussing resources and army gains, and things your character is unique in controlling as a leader. If this is about voting for a "huh, makes sense" clause, I thought we were already doing that and therefore, I would agree in having it. If it's about looking at someone and saying "No, you can't have an item that allows you to run up a skyscraper to the roof because that techs not in this world" or to say "Your Qi is earth bending, how can you mend concrete and suddenly shift metal, despite that making sense" I totally disagree. 1) Some of us were doing it. Other's weren't. For example, the most recent thing I've seen come out of the Dragon territory in regard to training soldiers is Delilah's thread with Olesya, where Olesya is running drills. We know it's happening, but there's little work to show for it before that point. 2)Some of those items are a bit OP. Running up a sky scraper is a bit ridiculous due to the laws of physics, but you can make it work with a bit of effort; adding curved spikes to the front of a boot would make it way easier, or even if they had a special adhesive on the bottom. Ta da. Not hard. This line, though; It doesn't make sense. Concrete is not earth. It's made of a composite of stuff and glue (Greg could explain better than me) and thus, when controlling an element which is pure, it is not pure, thus it can't be controlled. BUT you can controll the ground UNDERNEATH IT and move and shift the concrete to your whims, like how lava moves the tectonic plates. Metal is also not earth; in Mathew's case, he can manipulate metal because he had the gamble fruit that gave him the ability, but only pure metal and not an alloy. In other cases, unless that was specified, no, the controlling of metal should not be allowed due to different properties that do not coincide with the manipulation of metal. BUT YOU CAN USE EARTH TO WARP THE METAL. For example, during the flood here in Alberta, water was twelve feet high in some places. The pressure of the water bent the wood of the trees until they literally warped and folded in half, including the big telephone poles along the sides of the road. But this is how I would deal with it; as long as it can be justified, JUSTIFTY IT. In my opinion, a lot of this seems like a way to nitpick and make excuses for not doing work. If the argument is that 'we were already doing it', then why is it an issue for it to become a rule? We're here to write, after all, and have fun. Things are a lot more fun when there's fewer misunderstandings.
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Post by Delilah A. Black on Oct 12, 2013 16:32:03 GMT -8
Please read the following.The proposal is for the justification of the gathering of resources and the building up of Army strength and NPC's; it doesn't have to be a book. It can be point form. As long as it's justified, no matter HOW it's justified, as long as it is, it's legitimate. If it's realistic to the XIN universe, or you MAKE IT SO (ie, the rebirth of technology through hardwork/stealing/'magic [qi based techniques]), if you can explain it, it can be done. Same way we can jump over buildings. This is to not only make it fair for the older players who do this on a regular basis, but to educate and ensure that newer members do not take advantage of the lack of rules. If a MOD or another player has a question about your explanation if something was left out, they can bring it to you. Simple as that. basically, all that's being done is cutting out a very annoying and uneccessary middle man. We're all held accountable for our actions as far as stat gains and Qi go, this should be no different. Posting this again to reiterate.
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Post by Your Mom~ on Oct 12, 2013 17:07:17 GMT -8
TL;DR
Everyone just get along and if you have a problem with someone/character/item/Qi/whatever, talk to them about it. It's that simple.
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Do not test me. You will lose. |
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Post by David B. on Oct 13, 2013 2:39:00 GMT -8
Lol
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Sív pide köd. And I Shall Choose Love. |
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Post by Kyrie Blaze on Oct 13, 2013 9:37:46 GMT -8
First of all, I think everyone needs a few days away from this. And maybe even the site. I think I may even consider throwing in the towel; everything over the past few weeks regarding this and other things delivered to me this morning has...well. Stressed me out and I need to consider if it's worth it. Anyone that wishes to inquire for reasons may ask over Skype/PM/Text.
This may be long.
~~~| ! |~~~ Now to address this heaping pile of stress...
Meg and Corey. There has been work from both of you, so it's really not a matter of nitpicking or making excuses for not doing work. There are spotlights on training in multiple threads.
The Sky Force (Group Dev) Wind and Razor (Personal Dev)
Honing the Steel (Group/Personal Dev) Kokoro no Bushi (Group/Personal Dev)
Women Rolling Their Eyes (Group Dev: Recruit Training) For a Better Tomorrow (Group Dev: Foodstuff)
The issue is not that we do not show our work. That, right there, is a NON-ISSUE for many people on the board (aside from people mentioning seeing something, saying "Oh they'll get that trained out of them tomorrow" and doing nothing ICly). Those were just examples I could think of off the top of my head. I know that there are MORE people aside from Meg, Corey, Ally, and myself that show work being done (pretty sure I've seen Raj training the Wolfpack! among others). But they are highlights in a thread. That's fine. Good work.
As for the concrete quip, most people would consider concrete to be more "earth-like" than we might think. Added to it, there are different types of paving--from cobblestone to asphalt. There has been no say that it has to be "pure" element in Ryan's case, in Earth and the mutation.
Mathew takes a bite out of the most delicious fruit he's ever had, the juice on the inside is black, it smells of strawberries and oranges. Mathew gains a + 50% immunity to electricity Mathew gains a + 5 to all stat caps Mathew gains a Qi mutation. Mathew can now control earth ore's like metal. Though it takes all of his concentration, so one ore at a time. This shows that you do not need to have a "pure" element. Mathew goes on to bend a pipe in the same thread, which is not pure. The fact that "ore" is used also encompasses things like gems and minerals.
- Cobblestones are typically either set in sand or similar material, or are bound together with mortar.
- Mortar is a workable paste used to bind construction blocks together and fill the gaps between them. The word comes from Latin mortarium meaning crushed. Mortar may be used to bind masonry blocks of stone, brick, cinder blocks, etc. Mortar becomes hard when it sets, resulting in a rigid aggregate structure. Modern mortars are typically made from a mixture of sand, a binder such as cement or lime, and water.
- A cement is a binder, a substance that sets and hardens independently, and can bind other materials together. The word "cement" traces to the Romans, who used the term opus caementicium to describe masonry resembling modern concrete that was made from crushed rock with burnt lime as binder. The volcanic ash and pulverized brick additives that were added to the burnt lime to obtain a hydraulic binder were later referred to as cementum, cimentum, cäment, and cement. The most important uses of cement are as an ingredient in the production of mortar in masonry, and of concrete, a combination of cement and an aggregate to form a strong building material.
- Concrete is a composite material composed of coarse granular material (the aggregate or filler) embedded in a hard matrix of material (the cement or binder) that fills the space among the aggregate particles and glues them together.
- Construction aggregate, or simply "aggregate", is a broad category of coarse particulate material used in construction, including sand, gravel, crushed stone, slag, recycled concrete and geosynthetic aggregates. Aggregates are the most mined materials in the world. Aggregates are a component of composite materials such as concrete and asphalt concrete; the aggregate serves as reinforcement to add strength to the overall composite material.
Using a LOOSE basis on Science, as an example in this case as the qi isn't mine, most people - MOST PEOPLE (including myself) ("Huh, makes sense") - would be okay with Mathew's qi being able to interact with concrete, because that would justify it for them. Because in seeing that most people would say that "earth" is a major component in concrete/asphalt/and the like. So we need parameters on what is JUSTIFIABLE, now? Because what works for myself, say, as opposed to Nathan who has shown he wants ALL OF THE SCIENCE EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE (while saying Levi could join together photons (millions+ on that scale, even if he was just binding an outside layer of the object) of light to make a solid mass capable of bearing weight and achieving propulsion), is not the same. And even rather hypocritical, in my opinion, because the explanation I was given really explained nothing of the HOW (how to control THAT much on such a scale to direct and hold it (as pretty much anyone's qi would also be subject to), how would it achieve motion on its own, how could LIGHT PHOTONS form a SOLID OBJECT in the first place (Magic? 'cause I've never seen any object that is solid out of light; holograms do not count: they are not solid), etc?).
Mathew needs direct contact with his element (Ryan has stated this multiple times, IC (Mathew does not wear shoes, ever) and OOC) to be able to control it means that moving his qi through concrete, as in Meg's suggestion, would be false given her explanation/understanding of concrete, but not mine. Unless we want to get nitpicky and say that chances of the aggregate being connected to one another down to the earth could be better than most in these locations and thus Mathew can bend the earth through the concrete to satisfy Meg's understanding. The fact that this is not mentioned is called a willing suspension of disbelief.
Where have most of his fights been? In the city on the streets, likely, when he uses his qi. (Though Mathew is renown for having a layer of earth beneath his clothing. You can also use wording to work your way around qi limitations, as seen in my "For a Better Tomorrow" link. Kiyr is building her rooftop groves within the city itself, within the borders of Dragon Territory. Seems like there are a lot of streets and concrete, right?
Mathew was there, but not in his usual combat attire. He was wearing Jeans and a black T shirt. No shoes, that part was normal. His toes flexed in to the stone of the street which moved like sand under his foot.
Using wording as such, and in general, I've not heard of anyone having an issue with Mathew's qi or many of the things Mathew has brought in or done, because of the "Huh, makes sense" factor when he explained it when questioned. I'm using Mathew as a continued example. This is not me being dissatisfied with Mathew, Mathew's qi, or Ryan himself. Just as I am not dissatisfied with David, Delilah, David's qi, Delilah's qi, Corey himself, Meg herself, or any other character or person on the board in this capacity. If I wanted to, I'm sure I could LOOK through bios OBSESSIVELY and find some fault to nitpick over anyone and everyone on this board, including myself and my own characters (creating shadow objects was a mutation from the gamble fruit, but HOW THE HELL does Kyrie access a DIFFERENT PLANE OF EXISTENCE that resides WITHIN SHADOW (we can all see and agree that shadows appear on the ground (and even somewhat in the air because of the way the light is blocked) and there really is no way to say there could ever be enough room for a person to reside in them, let alone get flip-turned upside down and disappearing to a "mirror world"/"mirror plane").
We all could.
We all, as well, suspend disbelief because what people can do with qi (ex: Delilah achieving life for a small mechanical dragon; which is HUGE) is often unbelievable, but there is that "Huh, makes sense" factor that everyone unconsciously uses.
The same goes with items. Ally's character Olesya, yes, has shoes that enable her to run up vertical walls. To my knowledge (though at first it did make me go "Huh..? How do?", I simply incorporated a willing suspension of disbelief, because while many of the physics are similar between RL and Board, they are not wholly the same (which is also a matter of PERSONAL OPINION as to the DEGREE of similarity and difference though we're all under the agreement that for the most part on everything, gravity works the same) and you could justify such things like continuous running to be able to make the shoes work (I believe this is an item requirement, and good on Ally for sticking to it)).
To continue with items and the use of technology, with the issue of EMPs. How could Barker have enough to coat the world. "Huh, makes sense" states he does not (because if he did we would not have any tech, period), which is how we have the ability to bring materials in from other places (many times using the item shop to create stat items for our characters, or given justifiable cause as in the Crows Bluetooth)...but HOW did they find those locations with the bombs wiping electricity out on top of the EMPs? How could you find the locations with materials that still work with no electricity (Long Beach had spotty electricity because Leon was being used by Barker as a generator. BUT HOW WOULD THAT WORK? The nature of EMPs would blow cars, etc, to scraps of junk and even though it's been about (from my understanding) two years IC, how can you justify moving enough manpower around and being able to find the pieces that would work while rebuilding with the amount of NPCs your gang has?
"Huh, makes sense"/"Convenient GM/person plot devices"/"Willing suspension of disbelief", that's how.
I personally commend the Crows for the gumption to take initiative to get means of communication and transport working once again. Has anyone ever questioned how they found the pieces that were still functioning to make it work? Logic would state that California would be the most heavily bombed due to 259's presence, so they would at least have to go out-of-state to retrieve items...but to my knowledge, this wasn't covered, and nobody questioned it because it was justifiable enough that they were bringing in materials. How could they find things that work would be dependent on travel and being able to test electronic items in regions. This process could take ages.
But I haven't seen anyone question it (nor do I), because of those "Huh, makes sense"/"suspension of disbelief" factors.
~~~| ! |~~~ And I want to make it clear I'm not trying to attack any one player, character, or group. I'm simply using them as examples, because I am throwing everything in a more "nitpicky" light right now as a way to drive a point home.
As shown over the past few days, the Staff is entirely willing to work with people to get items (ex: BITECH PROTOTYPE: "Patched Lense", coming up with a way for the tech in the lens to work and be charged without being shorted out) approved and useable in a "Huh, makes sense" way.
SO. What the FUCK is the problem, people? Step up and talk. Are there issues with people/players from dropped plots (man up and say if so, so this shit can be worked out) that we feel the need to nitpick on one in particular (this thread aside as it was supposed to be for purposes of discussion) to sap the fun and enjoyment out of the entire board for everyone as a collective? 'cause, as I've stated to the person I've been talking to that has brought these issues to me multiple times over the past couple weeks, it looks like some people are LOOKING for reasons to nitpick because the person in question just so happens to be a "convenient example".
Now, some of the concerns can be/are likely legit.
But how about going "Hey, dude? I've got some concerns. How does this qi/item work? [...] ...ohhhhh, okay. But wouldn't it make sense for this to happen? [...] And how would it be powered? Yeah, sure, we can hash this out so it makes sense".
Because:
TL;DR Everyone just get along and if you have a problem with someone/character/item/Qi/whatever, talk to them about it. It's that simple.
It's THAT simple. Seriously.
This is what this issue boils down to: people not stepping up and discussing and working things out with the person the issue/concern is put in regards to.
If I, say as an example, had an issue with Corey regarding David's qi/item? I'd step up and talk with him about it, because I like seeing reasoning/explanations coming from the source of the creation. If, after discussing and potentially hashing it out a bit so it could potentially "Huh, makes sense" to me, I could not understand or if by some chance Corey was hostile or uncooperative (and thus far when I have brought up issues to him, and throughout the staff asking him to clear things up via David's qi, he has been very cooperative and altogether willing to share the hows and whys and has stated that he researches and the things he uses a "loose basis" on Science, because that aligns with his views on the board), then it could be escalated to the staff.
~~~| ! |~~~ On a more Staffy/Neutral point of view, in conclusion:
Because of the above issue of people not communicating clearly and effectively and honestly with one another, I think "justification" needs some base guidelines/parameters if we do go with the official "yes".
What makes sense to one person may not make sense to another, as we can clearly see from this thread.
This means we need a clearly defined basis on what our general view on the board should be.
What is "realism" as defined by 259? What level are we looking for in physics/science? How closely do we align with "real life" physics/science when we have qi (energy) manifesting in such forms as fire, metal, water, earth, light, air, shadow manipulation and more, where there are human experiments? Where there are mutated monstrous beasts such as OGRES and Ghouls and more?
But that's the thing with 259. We've GONE OVER THIS BEFORE. Remember the thing with Leon in June/July? This board is a pot of awesome ideas and awesome people with DIFFERING VIEWS that make this place DYNAMIC and INTERESTING. And part of that is WORKING with people on things.
This place is about the story and character interaction and the game element. But we seem to have this STUPID mentality that "we need to do this and this and this and IN THIS WAY because my way is the best way".
Y'know what? We all have the best way. For ourselves.
This also likely means that Staff will have to man this so everyone isn't jumping on one person/group/item/qi for not justifying things or not making sense based on a personal opinion. And what if people don't want to "show work"? Does everyone have to adhere to it? Are there bonuses for people that will put in work that meets approval criteria (which will also need to be created) for bonuses? BUT if it was truly about a story, then you shouldn't feel the need to be rewarded for writing more.
Which means you're demanding more work from a staff and detracting their attention from things that are apparently issues when you're not willing to work it out with your fellow players. This is taking away the "FUN" from the place that is supposed to be just that. Fun. A place we're supposed to chill and relax. This is not relaxing. This is not fun. This is stressful.
But clearly this last piece is what needs to be discussed if people are willing to step up.
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Post by Daruma Doll~ on Oct 13, 2013 11:50:34 GMT -8
Its this kind of bullshit that made me quit modding in the first place.
1) You're adults, act like it.
2) This is a GAME. It is all FICTION. Maybe you should be more concerned about the government being shut down than someone having a potentially overpowered item or Qi.
3) Got a problem? TALK TO THEM ABOUT IT. The mods are here to make things run nicely, they're not your fucking babysitters. Put on your big boy pants and talk to whoever it is put your undies in a twist. If they're hostile and uncooperative, then go to the staff.
It's seriously that simple, we shouldn't even need to talk about this. I'm done beating a dead horse.
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Post by Eurydice Sudeki on Oct 13, 2013 12:06:07 GMT -8
I'm kinda feeling the purpose has gotten SEVERELY twisted if not lost.
I believe the missing point is that he's putting it out there for staff to look into things. To step in now and fix whatever issues need to be looked at. Whatever may have been brought up to them, and maybe asking if there is anymore. It's kinda done a complete 180 here.
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Fate has multiple paths, which do you choose to take? |
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Post by Raikotsu Sudeki on Oct 13, 2013 13:45:07 GMT -8
Alright people one last time Imma try and explain this simply, basically, we want people to start explaining, Oh you have food? How did you get it? Oh thats a cool item, where did it come from? Hey your Qi is really cool, how does it work?
We don't care if you give us the scientific method, or you say, well this creepy guy in a shady alley gave it to me mumbling something about saving a cheerleader to save the world. Just as long as we no longer have, "Well its in my bio right there, so it just is. I don't need to explain anything about it. Ya know? Like Leon keeps say, only looking for something that we, the staff, can look at say ok and move on.
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Post by Dillon Kyne on Oct 14, 2013 18:44:36 GMT -8
I'm all for explaining things. Usually do anyway, so that's not a problem for me. Don't really feel like getting into the "good or bad" of it, but letting those you RP with know how something came to be is never a bad thing. Like it's been said before: Just write something small. If you don't want to, and some rule hasn't been implemented, then don't do it. It just looks like people are trying to make the events and other things on this board make more plausible sense. Take it or leave it, that's the choice of the individual.
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