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Post by The New Student Dean on Nov 3, 2012 18:00:06 GMT -8
I had a discussion with Leon, along with Squee. These are the points we covered. -259 Skype Chats: There has been worry this is primarily a hub of Dragon talk. Dragon plotting, discussing the fall of Crows and the whatnot. Probably, possibly... but its 259 chat. It's mostly filled with reenactments of DBZA, dicking around. Chances are, if you have Skype and are part of 259... you can probably be invited to non-commital discussions. Solution: Pester dem if you want in or post in spam. Someone will notice. People may not know you want to be invited unless you do. Also, it isn't an official thing anyhow, but they're fairly open enough... and even if you don't want to talk, the chat is still very functional. -Concerns of Leon bias/slant pro Dragons/versus Crows: In direct relation with Drums...: We pressed into this a little more... and I began to explain that this was perhaps more to the fact that Leon himself is spending a lot of time with Dragons. Of course, as we continued to talk on... it was just obvious that it was because Dragons were most pro-active in asking him for things. Of course, we then began to talk into long-style and short-style of posting... which will be addressed in a following section. -Concerns regarding M.E. events: M.E.'s will be reverted back to month-long events as opposed to the one-week to two-week things. The argument against this is... if you aren't going to do it within one-two weeks, you won't do it in a month... but to a very real level, some people can be just that busy where the M.E. manages to fit onto their priority list... but at the very back of it. A few of us may have kids, almost all of us have jobs, and all of us have lives and other pressing priorities, which is what made the M.E. special. Now, if you do miss out on the oppurtunity from here on... its nothing to feel bad on. Chances are, you spent that time doing something you found to be more important... which may be better for you anyways. -Concerns regarding posting styles (length) and play styles: The main thing that has happened in recent months has been a silently growing divide between long posters and short posters. Arguments by short posters are that a lot more things can happen with short posts, more character development can happen, etcetera. Long posters are those who want to flesh out things and feel that there isn't as much description in short posters to warrant any character development, etcetera. The main difference is in mentalities and probably perspective. Some view 259 more as a game, others may view it more as a gigantic bardic story, and a lot of us fall in the middle. What could be perceived of short posters is... they want to see the results, where the development actually happens, and the staccato in their speed allows this to happen for them, much like the concise precision of a haiku and would be or are incredibly excellent short story writers, which is not only difficult... but requires a very excellent structured mindset. Long posters expand on enjoying the journey -Synopsis and their usefulness: Long-form RPers can do their part for short posters... and basically give a quick summary of what happened in their thread at the end of the thread. This not only benefits short posters, but directing other posters (espcially in strategic-critical threads) to the key points of your post can help improve other RPers' writing and ability to respond accordingly. -Proactive RPing Versus Reactive RPing:...Which in all honesty, we at Crows did sign up for this. -Regarding Openness: When it comes down to it, openness as an RPer boils down to a few things including "what would our character do" the differention between ourselves as RPers and our characters. A group of people may naturally coincide with one another IC-wise... but could totally not actually get along OOC-wise. The same is true in the vice versa, but with the open community, the one vice that we all share is our RPing and our love for the characters and story. It may sound elementry to "disagree but still be open-minded" but we fall into this regardless. Just because a character is excluded IC-wise due to exile or what have you doesn't mean that it should be taken personally. -Regarding RPing Integrity: It comes down to trust again. Trust typically is accompanied by a certain level of openness... which can be difficult, because some things, some "feels" are completely reliant on the surprise and the "not knowing." -Original Content RPing Versus Canon RPing, And Our Character Rights: God-modding and metagaming, so long as done with player consent at this point is generally non-existent for the older players at this extent. However, that respect between players should not be forgotten nor taken for granted and jokes can and will get misconstrued. An RPer or Player (however it reads best in your head) has the right to do with their character what they want to do... because that is their personal canon. If they open themselves up to suggestion, fine, but advice shouldn't turn to pressuring "for the better good" of the character in question. Character flaws are beautiful things, not to be taken for granted, and sometimes not everyone wants to be cured. A canon RP falls on a character that was created for a specific universe and is to be played as thus. A OC RP falls on characters from our imagination... and that liberty of ours should not and will not be trampled. -Regarding Post Order, Time Sensitive-Quests, & Moderator Disclaimers: In regards, this has been addressed. It was talked about how a post order should be established, especially by the moderation team and how it can be wrong to begin speed posting without giving due warning. As with other quests, though, if a quest/defense/conquest is time-senstive, it should be and will be stated. If the moderator/admin in question has forgotten to put a disclaimer but proceeds to treat the thread as time-senstive, there should be no fear in addressing this calmly, wherein it'll be amended as quickly as possible.
Now then... we have undoubtedly missed a few. Which is part of the reason why we're opening discussion to the rest of the forum to go into details we didn't discuss or to expand on points we brought up, but to into detail with them.
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PLAYED BY OOC NAME
PLAYED BY Chunky Munky
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Post by David B. on Nov 3, 2012 18:17:05 GMT -8
My comments will hopefully be short.
I have not been in tune, OOCly, as much as i used to be in the past, mostly because i have tried to actively avoid conversing with individuals OOC. Now, I've not conversed with Leon much, and the only person I actually converse with often is Ryan. We do discuss plans for the future, and possibilities arising from different scenarios. I don't talk to anybody anymore over skype or MSN- this you can ask anyone. The only the I can say in regards to any of it is this:
Most, if not all of those plans, stick around the idea of Barkers downfall, and how we can continue expanding our gang territory while working with the other gangs to make sure they are protected and moving as well. I won't go into detail, as I believe IC stories are FAR more fun if everyone is in the dark about what everyone else plans, but I can say for myself that all of these recent events were news to me until this morning.
I am a pretty open guy though, and if anyone wants to talk about things with me, questions they have, concerns, plot ideas, etc- again, ask anyone, I'm a pretty open-ended person and will frankly tell you what I feel, and will talk about anything with you. You can count that it will be the truth, even if the truth is harmful to myself.
/tries to reply while still slightly confused xD
EDIT: Also, cute kitties.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2012 21:18:32 GMT -8
I have several grievances to air here and will attempt to be as polite as possible but promise nothing. I will then follow with my terms for peace, rules that will be set forth and then we can all continue like before but a lesson must be taught. First the grievances/crimes: - The OOC plotting/Skype conversations - My biggest problems is not that they occurred, that is fine, but that the content was explicitly IC in nature and set into motion without being posted IC. This not only corrupts the board narrative entirely but is a textbook case of Metagaming, something against the very base rules of the site. My source, which will remain anonymous, informed me Saturday of last week of a pending Dragon attack immediately following Barker's defeat... in the battle that was just posted. An attack of opportunity perhaps but it doesn't sit well when the GM running the event is a main player for said faction. But that isn't the biggest issue... the recruiting is.
In the gang rules, ALL GANG RECRUITING IS TO BE DONE IC. Delilah and Marcus were both recruited OOC, a violation of Gang and Site rules. Marcus's statement on it, quoted from a pm from Delilah. He can validate himself if need be.
Further more, when recruiting RPers and not characters, this brings the people behind into the mix. This doesn't just make it a plot against Kiyoshi and Unfettered, it makes it against myself and Mikey. That makes this a personal attack in my mind, adding to the severity of said crime.
- Site Loyalty - This is my other grievance not touched on by Mikey. 42, 774, and post fate, people left this site in mass for greener pastures only to return some time later. Twice they returned with all the experience and items they'd gained elsewhere. Meanwhile, those who stayed to keep this place going were left behind to rot. 7 years and I will admit I'm not the most active poster but I have never removed a character from this site or quit, neither has Mikey. We say nothing when everyone returns and yet, now on this third time, we are to be kicked to the curb and discarded. No. I won't stand for it this time and not when it's done to Mikey, who has been this sites most loyal member since joining.
- To the points Mikey raised - I will address GM fairness in the rules stipulations I plan to set forth. Post length is what it is, people have different styles however post order should be adhered to and slower posts should be given time to do so.
And now my terms for "peace"; - Term 1 - nonnegotiable. All OOC Skype plots and recruitment attempts are henceforth IC canon
- Term 2 - nonnegotiable. I was going to press harder on this matter but it would be unfair to Mikey and his schedule so I have lessened it to what I consider fair. NO Stronghold event can be run by the GM attached that faction; Side quests can be however the rewards are decided by a different GM. Put simple Mikey runs Dragon takeovers, Leon runs Crow takeovers and any side quest either runs for their faction, the reward is determined by the other.
- Term 3 - negotiable. On the matter of the abandonment events; ALL EXP AND ITEMS FROM 42 AND 774 ARE FORFEIT. For all parties. No compensation, no nothing. They are removed as if they never existed.
- Term 4 - negotiable. On the subject of Metagaming; ALL of Ryan, Leon, AND Tanya's characters are RESTRICTED from GAINING EXP OR ITEMS for 3 MONTHS. They are the most guilty and should have the penalties.
- Term 5 - negotiable. On the subject of Metagaming; as the Dragons are a main source of this, they FORFEIT the territory associated with Underground Facility 1 to the Crows as recompense and are INCAPABLE of attack Crows territory for 6 MONTHS, unless attacked first.
When these terms are agreed upon... peace.
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Post by The New Student Dean on Nov 3, 2012 21:46:35 GMT -8
I am locking this thread temporarily.
...Before this gets out of control, I am locking this thread temporarily.
So we can all view this with cool heads.
I recommend to anyone viewing this to please sleep on this. This includes moderators, Co-Admin, and Admin alike.
I will respond to this as soon as possible. Please read this and we will discuss this in the afternoon when we are all more awake.
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Post by The New Student Dean on Nov 4, 2012 18:34:00 GMT -8
I urge that you read this post in its entirety before responding. Afterward, please note... I have unlocked the thread for responses. I will be responding directly to Kiyoshi's post as a Co-Admin and therefore with neutral intent. The OOC plotting/Skype conversations- Accusation of IC RPing - From the unspecified time of when the 259 skype calls began occuring roughly two-three weeks ago (basing roughly on the time that Kyrie Barrial registered, roughly around the time of October 4, 2012), the following is being accused:
- OOC-IC RPing (essentially Larping via Skype voice calls, where it is much more difficult to document).
- Accusation of a planned Dragon attack via OOC means.
- Recruitment of players via OOC, and perhaps even the stealing of members and their characters without IC RPing.
Kyrie Barrial is purely being referred to in the above, due to the date of registration of her account as a time of refence, and should not indicate bias against either the character or the RPer.
Analysis:
-I do not know the source and while I will agree to keeping it secret and honor it. However, as in turn I do not have any evidence or quotes or even have the said person turned to me. As there is no cause or evidence, the accusation that phone larping has been occuring is moot. As there is no credence to any said RPing, it would be ignored to the canon of the 259 story anyways and as there is no hard evidence to press charges, this accusation must be thrown out.
-The accusation of the Dragon Attack would be substantiated by only one personal record that I have from Leon.
To contradict this, I have had several of the Dragons come up to me, one even offering to talk with Kiyoshi (I will only reveal their names at their discretion) about peace and an alliance with Crows. As an RPer, and RPing my character, of course, such contact could of course be a level of subterfuge and deception to make me, the RPer and "Unfettered," the character, to believe that Dragons is simply doing this to catch Crows unaware.
Regardless of promises, as Co-Admin of 259 and as an RPer, I must find these accusations to be moot.
If the Dragons intended to invade Crows by means of aiding their invasion by deception, then IC-wise it would be their IC-intent and OOC-wise we as RPers would responsibly have no cause to feel personally attacked and therefore harbor no warranted malcontent, save for obvious competitive nature... for those who view 259 more as a game. Alternatively, Dragons saying that they won't attack OOC-wise is a means of pacifying us OOC-wise because said Dragons are hoping to foster OOC relations/friendship RPer-to-RPer. Judgement: It doesn't matter if they're lying or not.
More to the point: Even if Crows were to find out that a deception and an attack on Crows territory, without proper justification, Crows could not address this IC-wise without meta-gaming. As we all know, psychic powers are not allowed to 259 players to the extent of mind reading, telekinesis, etcetera. As an RPer, IC-wise I could not justify "Unfettered" knowing, aside from the aspects of RP that IC-wise "Unfettered" can control. This point must be thrown out.
-The accusation that people are being recruited OOC-wise is something that wouldn’t even be recognized anyways without it being RPed on the board. People are perfectly free to discuss joining or recruiting of any said organization, but the recruitment/joining of any said organization will not and should not be recognized unless it is RPed out anyhow or in the process of being RPed out, in the case of the multiple-thread, single-direction of time, so long as done with consent. No character may be recruited OOC-wise and just have their character added to an organization without RPing it out, or at least discussing it.
While I commend Kiyoshi on actually investigating into the rule itself, the mannerism in which the recruitment is occurring is still going on with ensuing IC RPing on the 259 board itself, after it is discussed OOC-wise which is not illegal.
The points brought up by Kiyoshi of Delilah and Marcus being recruited is also incorrect on a grammatical level. At the very least, Dragons have attempted to extend an OOC-invitation to both Delilah and Marcus, which again is not illegal, so long as the jump is not made on the Organization roster just as abruptly, but they have not by their own personal testimonies been recruited. Even if a betrayal was planned for whatever reason, it would behoove Crows as a whole to feel any resentment/expect this as this would just then be the story itself playing out with Kiyoshi and “Unfettered” ending up on the short-end of the stick… and in itself, this would open up character development opportunities to see our characters deal with betrayal. While OOC such an IC/OOC betrayal IC-wise may not be appreciated and perhaps even resented, the RPers would still be held to the standard to respect RPer-to-RPer as this would then just be the characters quite literally being IC.
On an additional note, discomfort at being referred to as a source has been mentioned to me in regards to Kiyoshi’s post above. I wish to emphasize the divide between IC and OOC and must, for example point out that Marcus was referring to Marcus IC-wise and that the divide between character and RPer/person is prevalent.
- Site Loyalty
- Accusation of abandonment towards Kiyoshi and Mikey personally
-As I am being addressed as a person in this point, I will address both as a person and as a Co-Admin.
Quite literally… it is a person’s choice to leave or join back on the site. The matter of site loyalty and feelings of nativity are admirable and traits that I hold myself and it is not my place nor Kiyoshi’s to hold it against other people. To feel resentment is natural and human, but it would be folly to impose ideals on others.
That said, in terms of site loyalty, I have arguably have committed crimes against 259 itself in the past, suggesting to (unnamed First Head Admin of PHS #42) in light of a recent argument between Leon and Ark versus the entirety of the staff that perhaps the following year… we (the person and myself) should create a XIN site to fall upon. Said person was impatient and created PHS #42 the next day and everyone jumped ship. Perhaps in pentence, I joined up onto PHS #42’s staff but stayed on 259 so as to bring the item, cash, and EXP awards to the original 259ers. By some miracle, perhaps people saw that 259 wasn’t completely abandoned and in light of the generally agreed-upon shitty PHS #42 staff, most of PHS #42’s original PHS #259 members jumped back onto 259.
While confessing a great love for 259, I have also sinned greatly on 259 for many instances that I have explained… and have been forgiven and accepted again by the 259 community time and time again. So not only by principle, but also out of pure feelings, I cannot bring myself to genuinely and truly hate site transfers as it would only render me one of the greatest hypocrite’s the site has ever seen.
So, Kiyoshi, you honor me by calling me PHS #259’s most loyal member since joining. And I shame myself for breaking the root of your praise.
Myself aside, these items and EXP that have been transferred over to PHS #259 have been reportedly been getting more and more nerfed by the Head Admin/Leon.
The counter-argument would perhaps be… “Well, what if he’s lying?”
One of the very reasons I have joined 259 in the first place was because of how totally impressed I was with Leon’s attitude towards 259 new members and what have you.
Rebuttal: “Time changes everyone. What if the ideologies you used to admire Leon for have become twisted?”
I may have personal disagreeances with the man, but that does not mean we don’t work well together. Sometimes we don’t get everything that we want from a certain situation, but it is this willingness to work together and cover one another’s differences that has helped both of us so far. It is a cooperation that hardcore Republicans and Democrats could not even fathom. In times of being wary, I have addressed Leon and Leon has addressed me in regards to rising concerns with certain situations and certain people, and arguments have occurred, but the integrity is still there and the goal has remained the same: We both want 259 to flourish and we want the story of 259 to be as amazing as possible.
People should not be afraid to bring up topics to Leon or myself, nor mention from one Admin to withhold information to another. This only breeds distrust and ironically can help propogate artificial miniature cliques as people rise up in arms to one another’s defense. Many of us have seen this occur before at PHS #42. The priority for the Head Admin and Co-Admin is the longevity of the site. Whether through nativity, patriotism, liberalism… the site and the members… and the beautiful stories we weave are the fruits of our awesome labor.
- To the points Mikey raised
-I don’t believe there are any real points here I probably have to go over. Going Over The Terms- Term 1: I would prefer this be better worded. Taken quite literally… it states that everything OOC on Skype, including plots and recruitment become canon… meaning that everything the 259 RPers do on OOC Skype is henceforth canon. This is a terrible idea for a number of reasons, for which Team Four Star Abridged referencing is included, as I would like to not see a parody of Goku, Gohan, and cast appearing on 259.
I do believe that the intended Term 1 was simply, ”All OOC Skype plots and recruitment and recruitment attempts are henceforth invalidated, reinforced by 259 site rules. All OOC Skype Plots, recruitment, and recruitment attempts must be tended to IC-wise.” As such, this is a fine term and is being adhered to as far as solidified knowledge extends, as any OOC Skype plots, recruitment, and recruitment attempts would not be recognized by the site anyways, as previously stated.
Verdict: Perfectly sound.
- Term 2: The term essentially lists that all Stronghold events must be run by Admins and Moderators not affiliated by the attacking/defending Admin and moderator. Again, this is actually a reasonably sound Term and should be nonnegotiable, except for the fact that I am hard pressed with my schedule and Leon is getting wiped out from all the moderating. The truth of the matter is that both of us would actually employ this from the bottom of our hearts… but it is physically difficult to employ, train, and have a RPer pass… and this takes time.
Also, keep in mind that most players belong to Crows and Dragons, making this incessantly difficult. Leon and I are actually actively attempting to do this, but for the time it would not be fair to the Dragons to subject them to me (looking at the situation realistically) and while absolute fairness and equality is probably impossible… we will still need time to get the training and trust out to get all Organizations fairly tended to.
Verdict: An active WIP the administrative/moderation team is trying to achieve.
- Term 3: For reasons stated above, I am actually against this term, and will now address this from a personal standpoint: The PHS #42 staff attempted to make forfeit the PHS #259 gains. I fought them with word, diplomacy, my entire online arsenal so as not to deprive 259ers of what I believed then and believe now to be their rightful rewards.
Leon may actually disagree with me on this, as he has been nerfing items, EXP, and cash from other sites when noted, and some others even outright agree with this term, believing that to incorporate a stronger “togetherness” of 259, people should go through the hard knocks that 259ers went through to get to the level of power that some of us have acquired through the years.
I cannot hate on those with feelings of nativity for 259 because I am fiercely proud of what we have created here throughout the years and would even wish to encourage such competitive, nationalistic feelings for our RP site. Some of these very reasons are even very sound. However I cannot agree to this… as this was one of the very ideals that I enjoyed of 259---we were not afraid to take on a challenge from transfers… and now, in our IC-time of need for strength, why would we bar these people?
However, this was and is a real issue of the past and present, I bow to Leon’s decision to this, which meets halfway between what Kiyoshi wants and what I want.
My only concern then, as I believe it should be, is that any and all EXP, items, etcetera, should have a link/source, much like how a research book includes a bibliography for the sake of credit. Otherwise, with no records to go off of, it would not be with good integrity to let such recordless transfers occur. We, as admins and moderators, should not let personal feelings interfere with our work.
Verdict: A compromise is established, but to be officialized.
- Term 4: As there is no factual, solid evidence, links, or sources, much less first-hand testimonies, this term must ultimately be thrown out. As there is nothing else to go on, as RPers, we must be fair and have hard evidence, much like a court of law if it ultimately boils down to it.
Verdict: This demand cannot be met under good conscience.
Term 5: Much like Term 4… this cannot be adhered to. However, for Term #4 and #5 to be brought up at all, I must sum this up to a lack of sourcing on the Dragons part. Therein, any extra effort put into simply placing links and giving a quick synopsis on what has occurred, along with a date and moderator/admin who did the moderating… this should help allay suspicion from amongst the members. If this is worked towards, Terms #4 and Terms #5
Verdict: This demand cannot be met under good conscience.
I must make a few final notes.
-Dragons and Crows, whether IC allies or enemies should work together to promote and inspire the best RPing from one another.
-As this is an OOC ultimatum… I am terribly sorry to say that this runs the risk of OOC attitude affecting IC with the intent to grief Dragons, and is therefore running along the possibility of metagaming.
-Punishments for RP violations is a privilege that is afforded to the Head Admin, because you joined his site… and the Co-Admin and the moderators because we have faith in the Head Admin’s decision to judiciously choose a right and proper moderators to ensure that fairness and justice is ensured in the quality of the RP. Neither Crows nor Dragons should have to suffer and I believe that all of these issues can be discussed without the looming shadow of terms overhead. However, any RPer-to-RPer pacts will be honored and enforced by the Administrative/Moderator if it comes down to that.
-Aside from the accusations, Kiyoshi has not cursed nor put down members aside from the accused RPers, some of who have gone to me in these 24 hours to confess their outrage to me. That said, I do not want to see any cursing or flaming. We are adults and we will handle this like adults. “Two wrongs do not make a right” and the RP as a whole should not be affected by our squabbling, because our RPing integrity is the very fabric of what makes 259 and its many interweaving stories so beautiful.
None of the accused have enough solid evidence against them… and I must absolve these accusations and claim these people to be innocent of the accusations.
I open this thread now in my optimism that we can react appropriately to what some may find incredibly appaling, but who can in turn address this without propagating the tension and the divide that many other RPers have now mentioned feeling within these grueling 24 hours.
Thank you for reading, Mikey
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PLAYED BY OOC NAME
PLAYED BY Chunky Munky
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Post by David B. on Nov 4, 2012 19:03:13 GMT -8
Ive been trying to think about how to reply to everything- what the best way was that i could please everyone.
Since i am unable to find an adequade response, ill say nigh on nothing.
Mikey, i have spoken with you, and given you what I can to try and help you along, and any time you want to drop my name, copy messages i have sent you, or request the information i have stored away ( on my external ) you only need to ask.
You are an admin- ill follow in toe.
Have a good night everyone.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2012 19:06:55 GMT -8
You know what... forget it.
All complaints and everything withdrawn.
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Post by Kazuya Hikari on Nov 4, 2012 19:23:30 GMT -8
I will be as simple but civil about my point, as I've already gone over much of what applies to me with Leon himself.
As already stated, I've gone over this with Leon, as the part about 774 applied to only me (Gemmy, who plays Delilah A. Black, Squee, who plays Vespyr, Corey, who plays David Blaze, and Stef, who plays Bastille, were on PHS #42 as well, but as far as I know, Delilah did not get EXP from PHS #42 itself, Bastille did earn some EXP and an item, from the same tournament my overcoat came from, and I do not know for Vespyr or David). He has asked me to nerf the one item I have that was originally from PHS #42, the overcoat I obtained from the tournament, which I did, and removed the "Constitution is increased by half of Wisdom" with no fuss, no complaints whatsoever.
The ring I received from PHS #774, is going to be destroyed through a Lord of the Rings-esque quest of sorts, because that thing is too ridiculous, even to me (You should see the ring it matches to. That thing is even worse). The only items I would have left from PHS #774 are a bandanna that gives +4 Wis, and a consumable that gives x2 Intelligence when the user recovers (It's Nyquil, don't ask). If the consumable is an issue, I will sell it, if possible.
Leon had no problems with the EXP I earned from both sites, in fact, when he first broke my profile when I came back, he allowed it. I personally, placed as much effort into earning all that EXP as any member on 259 did in the fights, classes, monthly events, and quests, and to take away the EXP would mean those 7 or so months I was on that board, and my work and effort I placed into it, was for nothing.
Mikey, with regards to a source for EXP, for me personally, all my EXP can be verified, with the exception of Point Hope High EXP, as the board was deleted. However, there are a few people on 259 and no longer on 259 that were on Point Hope High that can confirm this, if a testimony is needed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2012 19:27:59 GMT -8
You know what... forget it. All complaints and everything withdrawn. To be reiterated.
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