Stats: Revamp or Ship Off

[Keith]

Leon and Aureus already know on the secret thing I'm working on in regards to stats and RP.

[Zana]

Nerfing the stats. XD

In response to the whole XIN thing- yes, I have watched XIN and probably several times over. Odd fact- in XIN series, and other series which are turned into role play forums and such- you don't see the stats. You see training- definitely, but it's like working out and such.

It might make more sense if a person worked out and gained a stat point, studied more and gained an INT point, or trained his reflexes and gained a WIS/DEX point. Then EXP points will be given for fights!

But I'm not sure how well it'd work out.

[Stu Pott]

Keep 'em the way they are. Stu has barely any strength, but I'm actually joining fights now just to get his strength up.

Jerk, trying to change everythin on meh

[Aureus]

Think you're kidding, but just to clarify for everyone who doesn't feel like reading through all the posts: I don't want the system to change necessarily. I either want it clarified a bit, like Leon did, or changed so that Leon's idea of Xin physics and fun taking precedent over everything was better represented.

[Zana]

Hey, my guys pretty darn weak too! (weakest prolly)

The stat system keeps people in line and limits their abilities to a degree- like real life, it works. It's not a bad system either- one of the most effective i've seen to date. Changing it for the better or whatever works- i'll go with that.

Changing it too drastically may be weird- but hey, we're all having fun, no need to get all sweaty over it.

[[more dramatic fights would be fun]]

[Mathew Amtrum]

Alright now overall I tend to support stats over non stat sites. I have played both and it is just a preference I have developed over time for one reason. In my own personal experience people tend to god mod more in a statless environment because you can't see the strength of the character. I will even give you an example

On one site I made a speed character. He wasn't that strong and he couldn't take a lot of hits. But he was fast, he was in track, he was a trouble maker, and he just plain liked running. Now I was in a thread running away from pursuers and he had a head start which was made bigger as he dumped marbles behind him. So he started out with a pretty big lead. Then out of nowhere this character who was balanced. As in they were only ok at everything and had nothing special in their bio that I saw about speed was able to not only catch up, but pass me, turn around, and stop me. Now you could argue they were just trying to get in to the thread but to me I got a bit ticked off and felt a bit godded. After all one of the only things my character had for them was his speed and this person makes him look like a snail when they are not even a speed based character.

To me statless RPing and stat RPing are the same thing with only one difference. That is that you as the player can physically see the difference in your character and can thus judge yourself based on the other character.

I am going to use Naruto as an example here. On one hand you have Orochimaru the legendary Sanin and on the other hand you have Sakura. I think we can all agree that Orochimaru is stronger then Sakura, but with stats we can see by exactly how much. And as Sakura grows it is possible that she will become faster then Orochimaru, stronger, and smarter. It is a physical sign of growth.

As for how to use them in a fight. I am a bit with Leon on this. I have personally never really had a problem with them, I think most of the problems come from people over thinking it.

Using Mathew as an example up until recently he had a fairly low INT and because of that he used simple moves. With a few exceptions. HE would stomp. He would smash. He would not do a flip off of a tree branch twisting his body in to a spiral to kick someone from a 45 degree angle. He wasn't smart enough for that kind of thing.

As for Wisdom and Perception I compare that to the person's DEX and then look at both of our DEX scores to get an idea if it would hit. Then I also look at the kind of attack and the distance. If you are twice as fast at me but you do a jump kick from 50 feet away I am sorry but I am going to have time to dodge it. But if we are hand to hand then odds are I am going to get hit.

From what I see the stat have most trouble with is Con. To me it seems that people never seem to know how much damage they can take. They are worried about having a set HP. The problem is rarely that they don't go down but that they go down so fast. Even with a 30 CON I have dropped people in 2 hits. Which really is way to short.


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On the other hand I do see the problem. I personally have never had a problem, but over the years I have seen many who have. The problem isn't defining what stats mean but how to use them. I don't think the stat system needs work, but maybe a tutorial for how to use stats. A crash course and some tips to keep in mind when using them. After all for people that are new to RPing or stat RPing might be intimidated by stats, and no one wants to be labeled a god modder.

Also I think we should stress flexibility with stats. Remember you don't have a set amount of hit points, you don't have a base damage, and you don't have a dodge rating. Stats are just a physical note to the RPer to remind us of what we already know about the character.

I don't need the 120 CON score to know Mathew could get hit by a train and be OK. Thats how his character is and has been for years. But it is a nice little note to compare to someone's strength so I can get an idea of just how much that blow is going to hurt. After all I might say weak is 30 while you say it is 10. But with stats we know exactly where we stand.


Hopefully this all makes sense. lol

[Zana]

Lol. *clap clap* Long essay description and really in depth- that was a wonderful experience. I enjoyed reading it- clarified a lot!

Hmm....about intelligence, I was wondering:

Where does creativity come into play? I mean- sure, a person, such as my character may have low INT and all that, but they can still be creative. He's not limited to pushes, tackles, stomps and stuff. He will zig zag, feint, and even use items- but I really have INT limited to countering attacks with crazy stylish moves and such. Low in academics.

Mathew- I liked your point about constitution. It would help to have a few guidelines specifying amount of CON compared to how much damage they can take. It would clarify just how much punishment that person can take- it's understandable. But how do I count in the endurance factor? If it's like "energy" for the person then the energy would go down while fighting and while receiving blows- yes?

Dexterity is how fast one moves- it says in the STAT descriptions. Then if WIS is the ability to see attacks coming- then wouldn't DEX be how fast you can put your arms up or curl into a ball? Or would that fall into WIS?

[Aureus]

Int would be both countering and the technicality of your attacks.

Also yes, Dex is how fast you can put your arms up. Physical speed of movement is dex, but visual and metal speed is wisdom.

[Mathew Amtrum]

May 23, 2008 18:21:37 GMT -8 Zana said:

Lol. *clap clap* Long essay description and really in depth- that was a wonderful experience. I enjoyed reading it- clarified a lot!

Hmm....about intelligence, I was wondering:

Where does creativity come into play? I mean- sure, a person, such as my character may have low INT and all that, but they can still be creative. He's not limited to pushes, tackles, stomps and stuff. He will zig zag, feint, and even use items- but I really have INT limited to countering attacks with crazy stylish moves and such. Low in academics.

Mathew- I liked your point about constitution. It would help to have a few guidelines specifying amount of CON compared to how much damage they can take. It would clarify just how much punishment that person can take- it's understandable. But how do I count in the endurance factor? If it's like "energy" for the person then the energy would go down while fighting and while receiving blows- yes?

Dexterity is how fast one moves- it says in the STAT descriptions. Then if WIS is the ability to see attacks coming- then wouldn't DEX be how fast you can put your arms up or curl into a ball? Or would that fall into WIS?

Well like I said MOST of my attacks are simple. Creativity with a low INT comes in to play in several ways in my opinion. The first and the easiest is the environment. You might not think to use the tree branch to swing but you might think to use the trash can lid as a shield.

The second way is even with a low INT it is possible to have a few special moves. My personal favorite move with Mathew is one where he dives in to a roll turning the momentum from that roll in to a handstand kick with a lot of force. And as he falls he uses his body like a breakdancers to do a full body sweep kick.

Honestly that comes in time, when you get more comfortable using stats and the people RPing here you will start to test the limits of what you can do. Because remembers stats are still just a guideline, just cause you have low INT doesn't mean you can't have a few flashy moves.

As for Constitution I see it as everything with your body. Energy, how well you can take a hit, immune system, alcohol tolerance, ect. Constitution is how tough you are in every physical aspect. In my opinion at least XD

[Zana]

Ah.....well that clears things up quite nicely. It's quite wonderful.

Say, what about willpower? By default it should go in constitution, but willpower is shown as something completely different in most scenarios. For example, Luffy from one piece has a hell load of willpower- his body may be completely devastated, but he pushes on and on.

Xin seems to do that in the flash animation as well- his willpower allows him to keep fighting.

I guess i'm overdoing this a bit- i like to overthink sometimes. Allows me to see more stuff- but anywayy~

Keith said he was working on something so we should be fine!

OH BTW. Where does wisdom come into play? I tend to think of knowledge as INT, and philosophical understanding of a situation and such as wisdom- knowledge and wisdom are different. Do they both go into INT? I mean in roleplaying convos, not in a fight.

[Aureus]

This may be a personal fault, but I only consider stats in fights, except for charisma. That's always on for charm and like John said Qi power.

EDIT: And conventionally people will tell you that wisdom/understanding is knowing how to correctly apply your knowledge.

[Mathew Amtrum]

INT = Booksmarts

Wis = Street smarts

As for willpower that is based on the RP and your own character. Stats have nothing to do with that. And as long as you don't go crazy most people won't mind the will power pushing on thing. =P

[Keith]

Guess I can put my two cents into this thing. I'm neither against Stats nor Statless fighting. Leon and I had this talk over the phone a few nights ago. Many people have told me that Stats are "evil."

I would have to agree with them to an extent. The reason stats are "evil" is that they're not RPed right. But, I have to strongly agree with Mathew in which there's really nothing wrong with the stat system the way it is. Mathew and I also had a talk on the same thing. He too knows what I'm working on.

Stats are good. But, they have to be RPed accordingly. However, the thing I have noticed is that there weren't set definitions on stats. So far, the current stats has all right definitions. But, the players themselves are going to have different logics and interpretations of stats. This is where the OOC drama comes in.

If there's no "definition" there's going to be players that argue about the definition of the stats. Player A could assume that 45 DEX means you can move at 80 MPH.

But, I won't go into that until I get done with some of the things I'm working on.

A combat mechanics system and/or a stat tutorial would have to compliment stats. Like Mathew said, your CON does not equate to hit points. CON is pretty much your endurance and pain/damage resistance. When you go down is pretty much up to you. But, CON has to be RPed accordingly. If your CON is lower than your opponent's STR, you're going to be winded and in a lot of pain.

With Xin Physics, you need stats. It puts a cap on your power levels. Stats aren't meant to limit creativity. Think of stats as grounding tools to give you direction. Plus, stats regulate Xin Physics.

Also, I do understand the need for stats. Because, it will reduce godmodding.

Leon and Aureus can back me up on this, the thing I have noticed is that only a handful of Xin RPers have actual knowledge/experience in martial arts/fighting.

I myself used to train in order to compete in UFC and K-1. But that's a different story. But, that experience in martial arts and fight training gave me a realistic perspective of combat. Anybody that watches a UFC match will understand what I'm getting at.

With stats, you can get creative with various martial arts and combat styles. With good enough stats, you can get away with leaping off a tree, spinning around, and executing a fancy kick.

While there are many that believe statless is better, there are many flaws in statless fighting. Without regulation, Xin physics and statless fighting will get out of control. I don't mean that in a good way.

I even had a talk with Roland about this as well. There are so many things that can be exploited through statless fighting. Statless fighting is more suited for realistic physics as it would take common sense.

However, common sense has it's flaws as well in terms of fight logic. In order to succeed in statless fighting, you will have to have a realistic perspective on combat. To be blunt, watch UFC. Disregard what you read in the books and see on TV/Movies/Anime/etc.

In a statless match, common sense requires both players to factor in a lot of things. For example, not many people would know that you're not supposed to punch someone in the face with bare knuckles. One or two outcomes can possibly happen.

You could break someone's jaw in one hit and/or break your fist in the process.

If you get hit in the throat, you're going to be out of commission for pretty much the whole fight.

As Mathew explained with the fancy kick, doing so in a statless environment provided it uses realistic physics will burn your energy out. If and when you burn out, your opponent's going to kick your ass.

The reason I use UFC and K-1 as an example, it's one of the best examples to see realistic fighting. However, it's still in a controlled environment.

When UFC made its debut, it was still underground. But, it gave the world of martial arts a major wake-up call. The mysticism of such styles like Karate and Kung-Fu was shattered by the emergence of other styles.

In short, in a statless setting provided realistic physics is used, a Shootfighter will PWN a Tae Kwon Do fighter hands down. For those that don't know what Shootfighting is, it's a mixed-martial arts style that combines Karate, Muay Thai, Judo, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and Catch-Wrestling. It covers striking and grappling.

In a stats setting, you can get away with picking whatever styles you want.

In a statless setting, if your opponent knows what s/he is doing, you're screwed.

[Zack Asiv]

Which means it would be unfair for people to go against that handful of people that actually have training in fighting/martial arts.

[Keith]

May 23, 2008 19:24:50 GMT -8 Zack Asiv said:

Which means it would be unfair for people to go against that handful of people that actually have training in fighting/martial arts.

Exactly.

To add, when I RP on a stats board, I did not focus on my STR that much. I mainly focused on DEX, CON, and WIS. I didn't focus much on INT back then because of how it was defined.

I reflected on my RL training of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Shoot Fighting, Vale Tudo, Submission Wrestling, Judo, Aikido, and Japanese Jiu-Jitsu. Grappling via chokes and submissions are the main focus of such styles.

I learned you can deal your opponent/attack much damage without putting forth much strength and energy. If you do such techniques fast enough, you could break your opponent's limb in an instant.

In a stats match, if you have a good enough DEX and WIS, you could evade it.

In a statless match, not as lucky. Expect to leave the fight with a few broken limbs.